Verfasst: Mittwoch 2. Mai 2007, 10:30
Um Missverständnisse auszuräumen:
Araber sind genau so Semiten wie Juden.
Pierre
Araber sind genau so Semiten wie Juden.
Pierre
Der katholische Treffpunkt im Internet.
https://www.kreuzgang.org/
Pierre hat geschrieben:Um Missverständnisse auszuräumen:
Araber sind genau so Semiten wie Juden.
Pierre
Pro perfidis Judaeis/Peter Bürger hat geschrieben:ollte ausgerechnet unter einem deutschen Papst am Karfreitag in katholischen Kirchen wieder von einer Glaubensfinsternis der Juden die Rede sein? [...] Das allerdings wäre ein Politikum sondergleichen. Ein Skandal ist es bereits, dass Joseph Ratzinger in seinem Begleitbrief zum Motu Proprio "Summorum Pontificum" diese Möglichkeiten nicht längst ausgeschlossen hat und Rom es derzeit lediglich in Betracht zieht, auf die Karfreitagsfürbitte im vorkonziliaren Missale Romanum von 1962 zu verzichten.
MatthiasHeil hat geschrieben:Erfährt das hier diskutierte Problem eine neue Dimension, wenn B16 das "pro perfidis Judaeis" bis zum nächsten Karfreitag nicht irgendwie aus den zuletzt gelockerten Ausnahmeumständen für den tridentinischen Ritus ausnimmt?
Dazu m.E. lesenswert: "pro perfidis Judaeis" von Peter Bürger am 06.09.2007 auf Telepolis.de
Pro perfidis Judaeis/Peter Bürger hat geschrieben:ollte ausgerechnet unter einem deutschen Papst am Karfreitag in katholischen Kirchen wieder von einer Glaubensfinsternis der Juden die Rede sein? [...] Das allerdings wäre ein Politikum sondergleichen. Ein Skandal ist es bereits, dass Joseph Ratzinger in seinem Begleitbrief zum Motu Proprio "Summorum Pontificum" diese Möglichkeiten nicht längst ausgeschlossen hat und Rom es derzeit lediglich in Betracht zieht, auf die Karfreitagsfürbitte im vorkonziliaren Missale Romanum von 1962 zu verzichten.
"Groesstes" heisst hier wohlgemerkt nur "teilnehmerreichstes". Aber Masse ist eben nicht gleich Klasse.Felicitus hat geschrieben: WiTaimre sagt: Ihr ignoriert sogar Verlautbarungen des groessten Konzils aller Zeiten (wie "Nostra aetate", wenn ich nicht irre, reiflich durchdacht aus dem 2.Vat.Konzil erarbeitet wurde)
Njain - vergleichbar gut besucht war sicher auch das Konzils-Geschehen, bis das Konstanzer Konzil endlich klappte, nur gab es damals absolut gesehn nicht soviele Menschen ueberhaupt und auch im Einzugsbereich der Kirche. Damals nahm man ja mehrere Male Anlauf.Peregrino: "Groesstes" heisst hier wohlgemerkt nur "teilnehmerreichstes".
Robert Ketelhohn hat geschrieben:… Die Juden betrachtet man durchaus nicht von der nationalsozialistischen Judenverfolgung her, sondern primär von ihrem Verhältnis zu Jesus Christus und der Kirche ausgehend, quer durch die ganze Geschichte der Kirche. Man kommt darum – ohne Versagen von Christen auszublenden, die Juden ungerecht oder bösartig behandelt haben, und auch ohne positive Leistungen des Judentums zu leugnen sowie ohne generelle Urteile pauschal auf alle Individuen ausdehnen zu wollen – doch zu einer insgesamt negativen Sicht.[/color]
Diese negative Sicht geht von der Kreuzigung Jesu aus, welche die Führer der Jerusalemer Juden vor zweitausend Jahren betrieben, und von der Ablehnung Christi – und daraus folgend der Feindschaft gegenüber der Kirche –, welche das Judentum – soweit es sich nicht bekehrt hat und in die Kirche eingetreten ist – seitdem, wie sie meinen, kennzeichnet …
The International Herald Tribune (November 12, 2007) hat geschrieben:[right]http://www3.ndr.de/container/ndr_style_ ... 200,00.jpg[/right]
Austrian bishops barred from Jewish holy site in Jerusalem for wearing crosses
Jerusalem: Thirteen Austrian bishops were barred from praying at Jerusalem's Western Wall last week by Jewish religious authorities when they refused to take off their crosses, according to Austrian officials.
On a planned visit on Thursday to the wall — the holiest place where Jews can pray — the bishops were given an ultimatum by the rabbi of the site: Either remove the crosses or stand behind a fence several meters (yards) from the site. The bishops refused the request and watched people praying from behind the fence, according to an Austrian official.
"They were a bit disappointed they were not let into the wall," said Arad Benko, spokesman for the Austrian embassy. "It was a disappointing moment." He said the bishops were not informed before the visit that wearing the crosses would be a problem.
Shmuel Rabinowitz, the rabbi of the Western Wall, said that while the site is open to all religions, worshippers are expected not to offend the sensitivities of Jews.
"Appearing like that at the wall plaza and at a meeting with me is insulting and provocative," Rabinowitz told the Israeli daily Maariv … [weiter]
Ich teile deine Einschätzung, Leguan. Solche Geschichten helfen, die Lehmannsche Häresie zu entlarven.Leguan hat geschrieben:Ich finde das nicht weiter schlimm, leider hat man in Deutschlands Kirchen zu oft verlernt, bei interreligiösen Spektakeln ein Nein zu sagen.
Interessanter ist wohl die Frage, was die Bischöfe da wollten. Kardinal Schönborn gibt uns die Antwort:
I do not feel disappointed because we have seen the Wall from the terrace and we were able to participate in the prayers of the Jews from afar.
Link
Vielleicht sollten wir dem Rabbi da doch eher dankbar sein.
Peregrin hat geschrieben:Ich empfehle vor allem den Kommentarteil.
Code: Alles auswählen
1. Know your symbols
Azamin Ippish, Galutnya (13/11/07)
A Chanukiah is a menorah, but all menorot are not chanukiyot.
A cross by itself isn't a crucifix. A Dead Jew hanging FROM a cross is a crucifix.
What, you want the bishop from Hitler's home town to think you're ignorant?
2. Cross'es
Daniel, Baltimore (13/11/07)
I am thrilled that the integretti of the Kotel was upheld with these Catholic Bishops. While not anti-Xian I feel that Jewish integretti is top priority especially since we have yet to realize the full control of Temple Mount. I think most Jews like myself have had enough of showing abnormal sensitivity toward others while sacrificing our own and allowing others, or not having a way to insist that we too be respected...B''H.... Am Ki [Punkt] It is Great to be a Jew....Shelo asani [Punkt]
3. What are they doing in Israel at all???
Ronny, Jewish (13/11/07)
They ought to thank Israel 1000 times that they are allowed to enter it after all the 1.catholic church and 2.the Austrians have done to the jews.
And if they should do one thing in Israel it would be to apologize for those crimes.
They have no right to enter our holy area.
If they want to provoke people and show that they (as christians who are , in their mind superior in belief to a jew) could force people of another religion to accept their presence and thereby accept their domination, they should go inside the Al Aqsa mosque as "the worshippers they are", not as tourists and see the reaction there.
Why were the christians in Israel?
To dominate the jews.
And to show "the legimimacy" of their belief.
And that is one reason why they are still persent in Israel.
4. Thankful Christian
Daniel, Atlanta (13/11/07)
As a Christian, I can't carry my Bible off an airplane into Saudi Arabia. Now I can't wear my cross at the Kotel. Thankfully, my G-d does not require me to go on pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia or bow before the Herodian Rocks in order to gain his favor!
5. a torture tool accusing the Jew falsely
Lea de Lange, Jerusalem (13/11/07)
"You have killed our Lrd", that's what christianity screamed at the Jews and the way we killed him was terrible. The cross. We did not do that and everybody knows it...but the cross became a false accusation to us. It is no longer just another torture tool, it tells a lie which killed millions of us. So...what's not clear?
6. Clearly Provocative Jew-Baiting
Dr. Zechariah, NY (13/11/07)
'Nothing new under the sun'.These Austrian priests' defiance in not following established protocol (that even the pope honored)can ONLY be construed as a provocation, to make Israel, Jews & R. Rabinovitch 'appear' to be intolerant when in fact it is THEIR intolerance which led to this incident. It's enough that we allow these Jew-haters to come to Israel at all, let alone approach one of our holy sites. Y'mach shemam v'zichram!
7. Christians at the wall
Noreen, Melrose (13/11/07)
Reading these comments left me sick! I imagined other groups saying these things and how horrified Jews would be. I know no Christian that would expect a Jew to leave his faith at the door in fact would welcome you with open arms. These comments are insulting to our friends in America and elsewhere who are fighting for the existence of Israel. I'm so ashamed by this and the Rabbi's comments.
8. What is the Difference...
Chana, Jerusalem (13/11/07)
What is the difference between wearing crosses, and all other acts or symbolism of Christian devotion there? I have noted, especially during certain seasons, Christians and their dramatic crying fits (even during festivals of joy), prayers to Jesus, and scarves or clothes that praise Jesus. Why is the cross the only thing being challenged? I say we are not going far enough to preserve our Jewish holy sites.
9. This was an overt act of provocation by the Austrian Bishops!
BMT, USA (13/11/07)
The Austrian Catholic leadership is virally anti Semitic and anti Israel as a Jewish Entity. They would not dare walk into a Mosque with their shoes on but they would defile any Jewish Holy place for propaganda purposes. Austrians to this day calibrate the HOLOCAUST! No payments have been made by the Austrian government for the HOLOCAUSE!
10. what a great victory?
jack bauer, disband theWaqf (13/11/07)
For shame!
Control a few catholic bishops who wanted to walk up to an outer wall! What a stunning victory...NOT
Daily heathen defile the top of the mount and nobody says a single thing! As long as the temple is defiled by ALL imposters no justice can be claimed by telling a few priests to take off their crosses....truthfully, whould you tell the mufti to take throw away his prayer beads before entering the mount?
precisely
11. If you don't like those apples
Anna, Ellsworth (13/11/07)
If Israel doesn't like those apples concerning Catholicism, then word has it Shimon Peres is working a 'Temple-Mount saving deal' that no one but the Pope and His Jesuits will like.
Towards another step along the way; word has it that outside option to deter making East Jerusalem the Capital for Arab Semites and giving them the Mount would be to give it back to the World and the United Nations would oversee it. Then those who owned most the land could claim it back. That would be Rome and it's Catholicism. That's an uchky thought
It looks as though 'Jerusalem indeed is going to be a cup of trembling.'
None of it sounds good. How did Israel reach this point? I believe the time for fulfillment is drawing
near. I believe Israel's true redemption draweth nigh.
12. Letter ## 2
Joseph John , Kerala, India (13/11/07)
You arrogant Jews, you will be destroyed by the wrath of Christians from whome you extort trillions and then insult them. Some time some day the insulted spinelees Christians will gather the nerves to stand upto you and that will be the end of your game
13. Pagan crosses
Anna, Wilmington (13/11/07)
The pagan church wants the Temple Mt. and all that surrounds it.
14. from austrians, home of nazi leader
what do you expect, (13/11/07)
talk about chutzpah...they want wear the symbol of jewish blood for 2000 years..it is insulting and cruel...the nerve is disgusting...i'm glad the rav of the wall did and said what he did
15. #1 Daniel
ER, (13/11/07)
Daniel, it is much more than preserving the Jewish integrity if the Kotel; it’s about banning a symbol of torture and idolatry from the most holy spot in Israel. I yearn for when Rabbi Rabinovitch can do the same with the Temple Mount!
16. Cross of Tammuz God
Elishva, Charlotte (13/11/07)
The Cross represents the God of Tammuz
that is why it is in the shape of the "T". Christianity follows Tammuz (sun god)
17. Symbols
, (13/11/07)
I'm not sure I understand this.....There is a mosque on top of the Temple Mount yet Christians must hide their crosses? I am not Christian, but certainly they can rightfully claim that their faith emanates from Israel, more so than the Muslims.
I hope that all Jews can proudly wear whatever they want while visiting the Vatican.
This strikes me as a case of weakness on the part of the Rabbi.
18. no cross around the Kotel
dovid, monsey (13/11/07)
Just as we cannot walk into a church (not that we would want to) with our heads covered, the same way Christians cannot bring their crosses into our shuls. They have their rules, we have ours. That's all.
19. #4 A Thankful Christian...
M, USA (13/11/07)
OUR G-D OF ISRAEL, DOES NOT ALLOW
YOUR AVODAH ZAR IN HIS PRESENCE .YOU FORGET ONE THING..ISHMAEL AND ESAU WERE RAISED IN THE HOUSE OF ABRAHAM AND ISSAC...THEY KNOW THE 'TRUTH' BUT THEY TOO CHOSE ANOTHER WAY TO MIX WITH THE TRUTH(THE TRUTH IS NOT MIXED)..
THEY STILL HAVE THE BRIS MILAH,THE EAT KOSHER FOOD AND THEY DON'T LIKE CHRISTIANS..BUT THEY TOO SERVE ANOTHER DIETY, FROM THE JEWS ALSO.
IGNORANCE IS BLISS TO THE IGNORANT.
THE CHRISTIANS IN ISRAEL DOES NOT VERIFY THEM AS WELCOMED IN THE JEWISH
COUNTRY. THE BENI NOAH ARE THE ONES
THAT WILL BE ACCEPTED,UNDER THE GUIDANCE OF THE SANHEDRIN.
20. crosses at Kotel
Aryeh, West Bloomfield (13/11/07)
this is a reminder of the time that Austrain president and former Nazi...Kurt Waldheim...refused to wear a kippa when he visited Yad vShem ... must be something in the Austrian soul
21. tolerance
yehuden, new york (13/11/07)
if you expect tolerance, you should show it
22. OPEN LETTER TO ARUTZ SHEVA WEBSITE MANAGER ABOUT PUBLISHING COMMENT #12
Dr. Zechariah, NY (13/11/07)
How could you post the vile, anti-Semitic comments of "Joseph John" from India. Don't his vicious Jew-hating threats constitute a clear violation of your policy as stated above every 'Post Comment' box? I mean he slandered the Jewish Nation, threatened us with destruction at the hands of Xtians (like I'm really worried), and should have never been posted. That he is an ignorant hypocrite who clearly does not know the basics of our "Old Testament" is a given. G-d says to Abraham in Sefer Breishis/Genesis that "he who blesses you (Israel) will be blessed & he who curses you will be cursed". So even though he is perforce cursed by his own vile comments, I'll add my own: Yemach shimchah v'zichrecha v'zaracha you disgusting aral idol-worshipper!
23. It Is A Shame
Ziad Maddah, Easton, USA (13/11/07)
It is a shame to ask Bishops to remove crucifixes before praying at the Jewsih Holy Wall. I Believe People come first before objects of worship.These Austrian Bishops took their time to come & pray for Jews & what do they [Punkt] Insults.
24. Crosses at The Holy Temple Mount
Lone Voice of Reason, USA (13/11/07)
Look guys, the truth is simply this: Catholics and Protestants (there's supposed to be a difference...) both violate G-d's laws by having these objects,period. We know this. The problem is that they don't. You can't expect to deal with someone when they are not even on the same page. As for the comment about Herod's stones, again, the Christian who foolishly typed that comment also shows just how much this group doesn't understand G-d, and how He feels about His Holy hill. Until this group understands the paganism and error that has crept into their beliefs, they will never be able to effectively interchange with G-d's chosen people. There, I said it.
25. Bishops should have prayed at the Dome of the Mount & Mosque instead
, (13/11/07)
Bishops Clearly Demonstrate they don't Believe In Jesus' religion. Why didn't these Catholic Bishops go to the Al Aqsa Dome of the Temple Mount and pray there instead? Surely their Islamic friends would have allowed them to enter the Dome of the Rock and the mosque. Or are they too idolatrous to enter the Dome & mosque?
26. Arutz-7 Photo
Joseph P., Jerusalem (13/11/07)
As a religious media website, posting an article with such photos that offends the sensitivities of Jews reading this column is not the Jewish way. Please remove it.
27. To the christians
Ronny, Jewish (13/11/07)
You can't tell me that you didn't understand our points. So don't act like you didn't.
Take it as it is:
You as christians are welcome in Israel as guests. But you have to respect our religion, in America and in Israel.
It is a must that at a holy site you behave according to the rules.
In your own and in our common interest, don't provoke a dispute over religion. It is better if we simply avoid these topics, and this is what we prefer.
It is highly offensive to us if you behave according to a belief of religious superiority.
[because, to put it mildly, in our belief your faith is clearly not superior]
And because you don't have this superiority you have no right, no claim to enter the kotel.
"If that bothers you, look how many times you bothered us"
28. to 5 : WHY DO YOU DEFEND YOURSELF ?
JEWS FOR JUDAISM, ZION (13/11/07)
The xtians have murdered more than any other in history and they accuse us of having hung legally an heretic traitor. makes me laugh. cf. Rambam, Laws of the Kings and their Wars, 11:11-12, p.365 Kappach edition
29. the crosses on the front page of the article
david, colorado spring (13/11/07)
Dear Arutz Sheva, I have been a supporter of this website for years now. I give hard earned tzedakah to learn more about my fellow Jews in Eretz Yisrael, and for other reasons as well. I must say, that I am completely appalled that you would have the "chutzpah" to display the four crosses on your website page. If they banned these crucifixes at the Kotel, why then would you think we want to see them on your website?
I don't think Jews are so stupid as to need a picture of a cross or crucifix to know what it is you are referring to.
I also don't appreciate the Google ad under my "post comment" box. It is an advertisement selling "crosses".
How despicable. We were tortured for 2000 years by these people. Now we want to help them promote their religion?
PLEASE REMOVE THE CROSSES AND AD FROM WEBPAGE IF YOU WANT CONTINUED SUPPORT!
30. I cannot walk into a church wearing my shorts
Sheryl, USA (13/11/07)
So you Christians have your rules, the Jews of Israel have theirs. And it only applies on sacred sites. You can have your crosses anywhere else in Israel. Show some respect, [Punkt]
31. About #12
Ronny, Jewish (13/11/07)
I just want to say that this is nothing new:
When this kind of christians think that they cannot convert us, they want to kill us.
It has repeated itself over and over again in history.
In my view: When someone attacks, we do not bow, we fight.
32. reply to Ronny
Lone Voice of Reason, USA (13/11/07)
You and I could have great conversations, my friend! I understand.
33. #9 BMT - You are right on. It was a provocation.
Debbie, Seattle (13/11/07)
Some - not all - Christians, hate Jews so much that they would prefer to have the Arabs ruling over all of Israel than to see the Jews as sovereigns of their own country. That's why some Christian churches concentrate their efforts demonizing Israel instead of fighting injustice and violence in the rest of the world.
34. not the lone voice, # 24
Meira, St. Pete (13/11/07)
the comment about Herodian stones really got me too. whatever Herod's motives were for building the Second temple it was the dwelling place of the Shekinah and the wall that's still there still bears some of that essence. Our G-d is so all powerful that just stepping into the plaza area one senses His presence. I invite Daniel to visit, bible and all, to see if it's not true. G-d doesn't dwell in any of Atlanta's mega-churches, only in Zion.
35. to #12 Joseph - Arrogant Enemy of G-d
yoni, beit shemesh (13/11/07)
Your place is truly among the wicked enemies of the Kadosh Baruch Hu. Be Prepared - you will be spending eternity in the flames of gehinom for your treachery and for defiling the Word of G-d.
36. reply to Meira
Lone Voice of Reason, (13/11/07)
Nice to see your comment! I'm glad that I'm not the only voice on this!
37. crosses vrs CROSSES
judy, israel (13/11/07)
There are small crosses that I have seen many christian worshipers walk into the kotel area. If you are talking about a SUPER LARGE CROSS hanging from his neck in the middle of his chest-that shouldn't be allowed.
38. No crosses or christians at the wall thank you!
Fivish, London (13/11/07)
No crosses or christians at the wall thank you!
The Pope had the decency without being asked to remove his cross when he visited the Kotel.
But why would a christian want to go there? It has no significance for them.
It can only be as a provocation, one they would not dare to perform at the Al Aksa or Dome of the Rock!
39. To #34 Meira
Daniel, Atlanta (13/11/07)
I can't visit Israel and be a true Christian. If I try to follow the mitzvah of Yeshua to share the good news of redemption, I can be arrested or deported. I support Israel and have a feeling of kinship with all Jews, but the facts are the facts. There is great hatred for Christians among many in Israel. It can be read here. I understand the history that causes it, but there is no excuse for it, just as there is no excuse for the history. Hatred must end. I don't have any for any people, so I've done my part.
40. Ronny, Jewish
Lone Voice of Reason, USA (13/11/07)
cdbeen@csg.net
41. To #34 Meira - part 2
Daniel, Atlanta (13/11/07)
G-d does not dwell only in Zion, Meira, he dwells in my heart and in the hearts of many, many others as well. It is G-d's love that gives me my love for Israel and the Jewish people, even when some Jewish people say hateful things about my faith in G-d, calling me an idol worshipper or worse. I don't think I would enjoy visiting Israel as it is today. As a Christian, it would make me weep.
42. to Daniel, #4
Ronny, Jewish (13/11/07)
You're trying to put us and yourself in corners where we both don't belong.
Hatred vs. Innocence
Well,face it, there is no hatred towards christians.
And you are not so innocent to believe that trying to convert someone, telling him that what he belives in is not correct, would not be seen as offensive.
It really is non of your business.
Would you want someone from another faith to try to convert you.
I know that you think that it's a rewarded mission, but a missionary of another religion could think exactly the same.
If you cannot agree with that, and therefore cannot visit Israel, then you can stil support Israel morally and financially for example by charity. It actually is very important and much development in Israel is due to American donations.
43. #41 You Pompous
Er, (13/11/07)
You guys are no better than the Arabs! You deliberately provoke a situation to upset the very core beliefs of religious Jews and then cry foul. You know very well that Christians also have absolute standards for their churches, and most Jews would not be presumptuous enough to violate them, notwithstanding that a religious Jew may not enter. In any event, I constantly hear Christians exhorting Jews to be a “Light Unto the Nations”, and yet, when they do, the Christian cries discrimination and persecution. What is with that?
44. Crucifixes at the Kotel
Trond, Norway (13/11/07)
To refuse those Bishops was an unwise move. Crucifixes should not be problem.
45. No Crosses, but crescent symbols for the moon god
Louise M.Smith, Brandon,Florida (13/11/07)
are welcome! The crescent moon has been the symbol of the moon god for thousands of years. Idol worship is permitted in Israel.
46. I'm Glad
PDH, OC (13/11/07)
I'm glad these "leaders" were given the option to take off or put away the crosses, which was not accepted.
Those very visible tokens do arouse internal anger in many of us, which never really gets said. To do this to someone in the midst of prayer, to pulls somones mind into angst knowingly is really not cool. Even talking during prayer is considered destructive, I can only imagine the impact of fury.
47. Very Cross
David, Manchester (13/11/07)
If #12 is not incitement, slander or foul lanuage, then what is?
How could you publish such rubbish?
48. Daniel, Atlanta Thankful Xian.
Gavriel , Los Angeles (13/11/07)
Thirsty ? Go make nice at the local Chabad and see if you can get them to pray for rain. Your "god" dosent seem to be up to the task.
49. Get Wisdom, Get Knowledge
Anna, Ellsworth (13/11/07)
To allow the stirring up of feelings whether real or not of anti-semitism is a dangerous thing for unspoken apostate ends. No one in Israel or the world wants to see the Sanhedrin become the Exilarchy 'Gods' unto themselves, through the reconstitution of Noahide Laws, determining for all Israel the Legalism of Judaism These laws will twist the meaning of being Jewish, force Judaism's religion and ressurrect a council 'much like the Jesuits and the council of Trent, so that Jews will do to Jews, what the Jesuits have sworn to do to non-catholic' christians. Kill them or make them bow.This will criminalize many in Israel. Is this what all the fighting factions want?
They divide us, get us to fight and then slip in new solutions, all designed to destroy anyone who holds fast to the Knowledge of our 'Wonderful Creator'? This is a trick of the enemy. This is Lucifer at His Height. STOP
50. Pope Wore His Big Cross at Kotel
Herb, New York (13/11/07)
#38 wrote: "The Pope had the decency without being asked to remove his cross when he visited the Kotel" THIS IS NOT TRUE. You can see a photo of him at the Kotel clearly wearing his big cross at .http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3067156,00.html.
51. # 4 Daniel @ Atlanta
Joseph . E, Givatayim (13/11/07)
Quote " As a Christian, I can't carry my Bible off an airplane into Saudi Arabia. " ,
Saudia is under the protectorat of US and Britain , turn your grief to those 2 xtian states ,
Quote " Now I can't wear my cross at the Kotel " ,
And we as Jews are forbidden by the pagan Israeli Gov't with its arabised High Court to conduct and perform Judaism rituals on Temple Mount ,
Those pagans institutions forbid proselytism but unlike their oppression and persecution of Judaism on Temple Mount , they allow xtians to have their religious services with their cross at xtians holy sites , they also allows the xtian good friday procession pilgrimage event in the Via Dolorosa (Jerusalem-Old City) , reenacting the path that Jesus walked on the way to his crucifixion .
Why would you want to wear a cross at the Kotel since Jesus was a jew , spoke hebrew , grew up in a jewish education , jewish enviroment , never wore one,
If in order 'to gain G'D favor' you know what your G'D requires you not to do , then as a non jew you only have to respect the Code of Laws known as the Seven Noahide Laws as the bilble teaches , to be eligible for the choicest spot in paradise ,
52. Of course it was provocation.....
Rob , USA (13/11/07)
But I agree with #10
53. " ................. and provocative."
A, PG BC CA (13/11/07)
So said Rabbi Rabinovitch.
The question is, what would it provoke him to do ?
54. # 12 THE EYES OF HASHEM IS TOWARD THE RIGHTEOUS,
Norway, (13/11/07)
AND HIS EARS TO THEIR CRY.
THE FACE OF HASHEM IS AGAINST EVILDOERS,TO CUT OFF
THEIR MEMORY FROM EARTH.
THEY, THE RIGHTEOUS CRIED OUT AND HASHEM HEEDS, AND FROM
ALL THEIR TROUBLES HE RESCUES THEM.
HASHEM IS CLOSE TO THE BROKENHEARTED,
AND THOSE CRUSHED IN SPIRIT, HE SAVES.
MANY ARE THE MISHAPS OF THE RIGHTEOUS,* BUT FROM
THEM ALL HASHEM RESCUES HIM.
*No one becomes truly righteous
and great without
his share of mishaps (Sfas Emes).
THE DEATH BLOW OF THE WICKED (ungodly) IS EVIL,*
*Wicked people will be destroyed
by the very evil they set in motion (Radak).
AND THE HATERS OF THE RIGHTEOUS WILL BE CONDEMNED.
HASHEM REDEEMS THE SOUL OF HIS SERVANTS (the Jews),
AND ALL THOSE WHO TAKE REFUGE IN HIM WILL NOT BE CONDEMNED.
Psalm 34:16-23
55. Bishops never wear crucifixes in Muslim holy sites, why do they insult Jews?
Nannette, London (13/11/07)
Disgusting!
56. A lesson to be learned
jehiel chaleff, NYC (13/11/07)
As long as Hitler's "landsmen" insist on provoking Jews, especially at their holy sites, with the carnard of Deicide as represented by the Cross, a lesson they would do well to learn is that each nail Jesus hung from was stamped "Fabricado en Italia".
57. Re: 41, Daniel
sharbano, Olathe (13/11/07)
It's avodah zara for Jews in Any way to acknowledge a "foreign" god which Xtianity is certainly a part of. It's much the same during ancient times with worship of Baal and Asherah. Baal was also dead and resurrected. This type of worship has plagued the Jews since the time of Canaan. We don't need to continue it in this day.
58. Chana #u
jehiel chaleffnyc, NYC (13/11/07)
You ask what the diffeence is between a cross & other Christian symbolism? The difference is; that the cross or minor varients thereof have been the symbol of: The Crusaders, Inquisitionists, Pogrommists, Ku Klux Klansmen and the Nazi Party. If that's not enough of a reason for, at least suspicion as to motive, I suggest that you go back to your Hebrew school & ask for a tuition refund.
59. Busha
OS, Israel (13/11/07)
The Busha = Shame is the double standards that the rabbis have - imagine being told that in order to visit the Vatican, or any other Christian holy site a Jew would have to remove his head covering, or a woman her hat? What would we say. What if someone were told to tuck in his tzitzit?
If our faith is so weak that it is disturbed by the presence of someone who is expressing their religious beliefs - then our faith is non-existent.
This move was hurtful, ridiculous, unreasonable, unfair and just plain WRONG. Not to mention the damage it did to Israel in the eyes of the world - we appear, yet again, to be backwards, intolerant people. And before everyone attacks me - I am dati - and my faith does not waver from seeing someone practice a different faith.
60. [Punkt]
j, sf (13/11/07)
Good! Why should they be alowed to do so? If they want to visit our holy sights they should show respect for us in our country. What would happen if I went to the Vatican wearing a big mogen daviid or mecca? ITs BS that we let these people do as they please. If you want to visit Israel remember when in Jerusalem do as a [Punkt] This is OUR country not theirs. If they dont like it they can hit the road, we dont need anything from [Punkt] WELCOME TO THE NEW ISRAEL WHERE IT IS BETTER (thanks to bleeding heart lefty reform Jews) to be an arab than a [Punkt] ISRAEL FOR JEWS everyone else out or [Punkt]
61. #4 DANIEL
j, sf (13/11/07)
Who cares!! boo hoo!! dial 1-800-[Punkt] Go home, we dont want or need [Punkt] WELCOME TO THE NEW [Punkt]
62. It doesn't take long, does it?
Moriah, sacramento (13/11/07)
Xiuns like to say how much they support Jews but as soon as you ask them to drop their idols of wood the mask comes off. They're like evil step children waiting for a patriarch to die so they can cash in on the insurance policy. Sorry guys, the insurance policy says: To THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL!
63. #7 Noreen
j, sf (13/11/07)
Boo hoo! Noreen. If you dont like it get out and dont come back!! Of course you would welcome it bc u people want us to disappear. Dont try to fool us we ar enot unknowledgable russian immigrant who you can fool. We are well educated [Punkt] We dont need you or want you. Stay away. You are not our friends or our allies, but only enemies in sheep's [Punkt] If I see a cross at the Kotel they are going down [Punkt] Take it to the Vaticaqn not in my place. Even you words show complete lack of knowledge and disrespect. WELCOME TO THE NEW ISRAEL WHERE IT IS BETTER TO BE A GOY OR arab THAN A [Punkt] thanks to all the bleeding heart, whiney, lefty [Punkt] Goyiim OUT arabs [Punkt]
64. RONNIE #31
j, sf (13/11/07)
So what are you doing reading a right wing Israeli paper if you feel that way dum dum? Such a brave guy in India hiding in the Ed section. Why not come to Israel so we can a real close face to face talk my man? Your as big of a coward as the rest of your kind, only brave behind a katusha rocket. Boo hoo, little [Punkt] AM YISROEL [Punkt] WELCOME TO THE NEW JEW BUD WHO AINT SCARED OF ANYTHING AND that makes you nuts:)
65. To Daniel #41
Moriah, sacramento (13/11/07)
YOU are NOT worshiping the G-d of Israel if you call yourself a Christian. You are worshiping a man who walked this earth. You have a fundamental mis-comprehension of who our Creator is. You need to go out and buy a Tanach...no first go learn to read and understand Hebrew, then buy a Tanach and read it from front to back. JC isn't in there ... period. Read what HKB'H says about idolators.
66. The Roman Crucifix
Eliezer, (13/11/07)
The gravest insult to the Jewish people, is how Roman Bishops should return to the site where Rome has murdered Jews in the name of a Jew who they deify as a god. To the Jewish people, the Roman crucifix is an idolatrous symbol of suffering & persecution at the hands OF Rome over the centuries. Jesus is not G-d, and Rome has done enough harm in his name. G-d is G-d, & His sons & daughters are the Jewish people, today & forever. If the Roman Bishops wish to come to Jerusalem, come, but come with humility, respect and sensitivity to past Roman barbarisms perpetrated against the Jewish people, in the name of a Jewish man they crucified, adopted & now worship as their "god." To be a Jewish Messiah, a man must be married & observe the Mosaic code. Was Jesus married? And if he were alive today, where would he go to pray? Does Rome hope for, or conspire to prevent the coming of G-d's Messiah.
67. #28 Jfor J Please get your fact right.
American, India (13/11/07)
Anyone who is educated knows that it is highly documented that the greatest killers of ALL time were not Christians. The Greastest Killers were: Stalan,PolPot, and Mao.
68. Daniel, Atlanta B"H
boruch hoffinger, brooklyn ny (13/11/07)
Don't let anyone offend you. Non-Jews are permitted to have a 'shutfuss' a go-between, between them and G-d.
Our sages said so.
Bhoffinger@aol.com
69. xtians are not welcomed in ZION [Punkt][Punkt][Punkt][Punkt][Punkt] (n"c)
JEWS FOR JUDAISM, ZION (13/11/07)
70. Tammuz?
Rich, Canada (13/11/07)
PLease let me offer my opoligies on behalf of Joseph#12. I am a Christian however I am also Hebrew, grafted into the vine of Abrahams lineage.
I pray for Israel and love Israel as my own country but if my Canada goes against Israel in any way then I side with Israel. G-d bless you chosen apples of G-d's eyes. Shalom
71. KOTEL
JUDITH, TEXAS (13/11/07)
MAYBE THE RABBI SAVED THE BISHOPS LIVES BY PREVENTING THEM FROM GOING TO THE KOTEL. REMEMBER HASHEM TOOK THE LIFE OF THOSE HE DID NOT WANT TO ENTER THE TEMPLE OR TOUCH HOLY INCESENSE OR MAKE STRANGE FOREIGN FIRE. HE MAY HAVE SAVED THEM FROM A TERRIBLE FATE.
72. #5
DavidM, Rhode Island (13/11/07)
It's not the Christians who were doing the suicide bombings.
73. #13
DavidM, Rhode Island (13/11/07)
That dome on the Temple Mount wasn't built by Christians.
74. #12
DavidM, Rhode Island (13/11/07)
If you are really a Christian you really need to read your New Testament more.You sound like an extremist Muslim.
75. Whatever happened to tolerance and friendship? (n"c)
Rebecca, USA (13/11/07)
76. The Bishops conduct was a mockery to the Ten Commandments, period
, (14/11/07)
From numerous photos Catholics have crosses with a corpse on them depicting Jesus who they allege was a Jew. Proper protocol for these Bishops would have been to dress in their normal ordinary clothing which they do when on vaction. i.e. They wear sports garb when they play golf or go hiking and not their ecclesiastic ensembles. Some of these clergy have been seen wearing very short shorts which expose their wears while on church organized tours of the Holy Land. There is no doubt this clan of Bishops had racially motivated overt and covert actions in mind.
77. To Zaid and Daniel (Atlanta) and all of the non-Jews who don't "understand"
yoni , beit shemesh (14/11/07)
You guys just don't get it - that was not "just a cross" the Bishops were being asked to conceal (I'm sure there are plenty of Christians who do visit the Wall with small, "harmless" ones) Do not compare this to a Jew in St Peter's Square with a Star of David around his neck. Sorry to be blunt, but for us Jews those crosses (and these guys were wearing the huge In-Your-Faceones) are the definitive symbol of 2000 years of the persecution, oppression, hatred, inquisition and SLAUGHTER of MILLIONS of Jews. It's not like we were asking them to remove their Bishop's cloak or Papal rings or whatever. My guess is had they come at 2 in the morning the scenario might have evolved differently. And coming to pray that all Jews should convert to Xtianity, Zaid, hardly makes them into tzakikim that we should bow down to in everlasting appreciation that they "took the time" to come. Oy, Tateh!
78. Azamin #1: You make as much sense as a screen door in a submarine, and you're...
Stewart, USA (14/11/07)
trying to make a point about ignorance?
79. To Daniel from Atlanta
yoni, beit shemesh (14/11/07)
Daniel I have no doubt you love the Jewish people, but please open your eyes and heart and acknowledge how much we have suffered at the hands of your faith in the name of JC for 2000 years and how this might affect how we see your faith. You say you would weep if you came to Israel these days. Do you weep for the the millions of Jews butchered in the name of Xtianity? Do you? It hasn't been nice being called Chri-t Killers, horned-devils, child-murderers or endless other damnations either, you know. Trust me. Did you think ideological debate was a one-way street - that Xtians can challenge, negate, damn-to-hell and rip-to-shreds Judaism ,but G-d forbid we should express our own disbelief in Xianity and the fact that, yes, it just isn't "emes" (truth) for us. I see it's a bit hard for you to stomach, so.... let's just agree to disagree, okay? Peace, brother.
80. no cross around the Kotel
Noreen, Melrose (14/11/07)
Jews can absolutely walk into a church with their head covered.
81. Crucifixes at the Kotel
Chris Griffiths, Ashford (14/11/07)
As a Christian, I find crucifixes (crosses with an image of Christ on them) deeply offensive. Any such religious images lead to idolatry. There is evidence that the cross was not originally a Christian symbol, but one associated with the worship of the pagan god Tammuz
82. for # 17 Mr. REPLY
EGW, vancouver (14/11/07)
MR. REPLY- You don't sound very bright, but more likely, you're pretending to be simple. You say you don't understand. What's not to understand. The cross has been the symbol of slaughter, rape, degredation torture burning and any other obscentiy that a depraved mind can imagine for nearly 1700 years. And all heaped on the heads of the Jews. For the next 100,000 years, a cross will cause revulsion to a Jew. So again, what's not to understand?? The Magen David holds NO THREAT to anyone, and doesn't hold any religious sanctity anyway. It's merely one of several recognisably Jewish motifs like the etrog, lulaf, shofar menorah etc. not one of them ever brandished over cowering heads. And anyway, Jews don't wear them plastered all over their chests. The crusaders wore their crosses that way, and are still remembered with hatred and anger. So Mr. Reply get a history book out of the library.
83. To #34 and to #41
David , Miami (14/11/07)
According to Go-d, Moses and the Torah, Go-d doesn't dwell in ANY church nor in ANY other place of idolatry/impurity, whether in Atlanta or in Zion and He is a "jeaulous Go-d"(10 commandments)and, if idolatry is brought into a Jewish holy place the , shechina, Divine Presence, flees from there. If you xtians want to visit a real HOLY Jewish place, yu should leave your religious symbols and "tools" outside the place..
84. Crucufixes
Scott , Machesney Park (14/11/07)
I think this is one of the few areas that I would disagree with Hebrews... Christian Jewish religion by the To tell the truth document. The fine line should be the lack of a "graven image" of the "Gentile Messiah".Christians do not ban a Star of David in their churches,Do unto others as... Scotty
85. I cried ...
Joyce, United States (14/11/07)
I cried as I read the majority of comments and tried to understand them.
You have no idea how many Crucifex wearing Christians "Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem", pray you do not give up an inch of land, and pray for the day we all will see Messiah on the Mount of Olives and He brings true and lasting peace. True Christians believe we share a history and a future - together. I wear a Star of David pin inside my church and no one is offended. My favorite person is Jewish and I don't blame anyone for His death on a cross because true Christians blame themselves, it was our own sin.
I don't just have a "tolerance" for the Hebrew race and Jewish religion. I have a Father who also faught to keep the Jewish race alive. By the way, he also still has his crucifex and his bullet proof Bible he carried while defending our ways of life in World War II. Would he not be welcome at the Wall?
86. #s 39 & 41 Daniel
Jew guy, California (14/11/07)
That's just the point, Daniel: We DON'T want you "sharing" your "good news". You certainly are welcome to visit Israel in order to explore your Christian 'Jewish-roots', but just remember that the "roots" are Jewish, and the trunk is Jewish and not Christian. So be one of those "righteous gentiles", or better yet, become a Noahide, and support Israel, Jews and Judaism and be "blessed".
Your trying to share your "gospel" with any Jew (in the States or in Israel)will only bring you the curse of Gen. 12:3.
I can see that your heart means well, but stop and think!
87. "sensitivities of the Jews"
Bud, (14/11/07)
What about the, "sensitivities"
of Christians who want to pray
to the God of Israel? Do they count?
Israel hasn't enough self declared enemies? They go out of their way to make enemies of those who would be their allies?
88. Daniel # 39
Meira, tampastan bay (14/11/07)
Yes you would weep. Israel is tough, not for the faint of heart. If you just want to have a lovely stroll with Y in the places he walked, I suggest you wait because you're not ready and it will destroy you. BTW, I know that you're taught to believe that wanted you to proselytize the Jews but that is a misinterpretation. If you also believe he was a Jewish rabbi, some even think a Pharisee, he would NEVER have told his followers that. It just doesn't follow what he is reputed to have said about following the Torah himself. He didn't *fulfill* it in the sense of prophecy and he wasn't referring to *law* In fact he probably didn't say that either because no one can fulfill all the Torah, some of it doesn't apply to all of us, like the Levitical precepts. and other parts don't apply all the time like the sabbatical year.
89. TO #79 Yoni
Daniel, Atlanta (14/11/07)
Yes, Yoni, I do weep for all of the Jews who have been killed over the centuries, but the reason is the lack of Christian values being observed, not because of them. As for me, I have contributed to building the security fence, to charities for elderly and needy Holocaust survivors, and to the Birthright program for youth, among other things. I do what I can to show my love for Israel and Jewish people.
90. inappropriate picture
malka, australia (14/11/07)
you shouldnt be putting pictures of crosses on a jewish site
91. Avoda Zara
Yitz, Midwood (14/11/07)
Posting a picture of Tzlomim (crucifixes) is not only in bad taste but tantamount to avak avoda zara.
92. Daniel from Atlanta
yoni, beit shemesh (14/11/07)
G-d Bless, Brother
Wirkt so.Nietenolaf hat geschrieben:Da ist wohl eine ganze Legion Dämonen durch das Kreuz aufgescheucht worden.
Wolffsohn unterliegt offensichtlich dem Irrtum, es gäbe einen zweiten (rein jüdischen) Heilsweg neben dem von Jesus Christus Vorgezeichneten!Linus hat geschrieben:welt.de: Falsche Bilder vom Judentum
Das ist historisch völlig falsch.taddeo hat geschrieben:Judenmassaker und Hexenverbrennungen waren nie Sachen des "Pöbels", sondern der Obrigkeiten.
So?Robert Ketelhohn hat geschrieben:Das ist historisch völlig falsch.taddeo hat geschrieben:Judenmassaker und Hexenverbrennungen waren nie Sachen des "Pöbels", sondern der Obrigkeiten.
Ich würde vielleicht differenzieren: Die hohe Obrigkeit wollte schützen und gegensteuern. Die Anführer aber waren doch zumindest gelegentlich aus dem Adel. Ich spiele auf den Grafen Emicho von Leiningen an, dessen Heerhaufen für die Judenpogrome Ende des 11. Jh. verantwortlich war. Die höhere Obrigkeit, beispielsweise in Mainz in Gestalt des Erzbischofs, versuchte allerdings, die Juden zu schützen. Weil das misslang (der Erzbischof war leider ein Zauderer), wurde der Erzbischof später vom Kaiser bestraft.Robert Ketelhohn hat geschrieben:„Klassische“ Judenpogrome kamen praktisch immer „von unten“, die Obrigkeit
versuchte zu schützen und gegenzusteuern.
Ich bin kein Fachmann für dieses Thema und habe auch keinen vollständigen Überblick. Aber was ich bisher gelesen habe, gingen solche "spontanen" Progrome immer irgendwie von der Obrigkeit aus, die den "Pöbel" dafür instrumentalisierte. Meistens wollte man mal wieder die Schulden loswerden und hat dazu einen der beliebten Vorwände ge- bzw. erfunden. Danach war wieder ein paar Jahrzehnte Ruhe, bis dann die nächste Aktion nötig war.Maurus hat geschrieben:Ich würde vielleicht differenzieren: Die hohe Obrigkeit wollte schützen und gegensteuern. Die Anführer aber waren doch zumindest gelegentlich aus dem Adel. Ich spiele auf den Grafen Emicho von Leiningen an, dessen Heerhaufen für die Judenpogrome Ende des 11. Jh. verantwortlich war. Die höhere Obrigkeit, beispielsweise in Mainz in Gestalt des Erzbischofs, versuchte allerdings, die Juden zu schützen. Weil das misslang (der Erzbischof war leider ein Zauderer), wurde der Erzbischof später vom Kaiser bestraft.Robert Ketelhohn hat geschrieben:„Klassische“ Judenpogrome kamen praktisch immer „von unten“, die Obrigkeit
versuchte zu schützen und gegenzusteuern.
Ich bin da auch kein Fachmann und habe die Erörterung daher auch nur um ein Beispiel erweitert .taddeo hat geschrieben:Ich bin kein Fachmann für dieses Thema und habe auch keinen vollständigen Überblick. Aber was ich bisher gelesen habe, gingen solche "spontanen" Progrome immer irgendwie von der Obrigkeit aus, die den "Pöbel" dafür instrumentalisierte. Meistens wollte man mal wieder die Schulden loswerden und hat dazu einen der beliebten Vorwände ge- bzw. erfunden. Danach war wieder ein paar Jahrzehnte Ruhe, bis dann die nächste Aktion nötig war.Maurus hat geschrieben:Ich würde vielleicht differenzieren: Die hohe Obrigkeit wollte schützen und gegensteuern. Die Anführer aber waren doch zumindest gelegentlich aus dem Adel. Ich spiele auf den Grafen Emicho von Leiningen an, dessen Heerhaufen für die Judenpogrome Ende des 11. Jh. verantwortlich war. Die höhere Obrigkeit, beispielsweise in Mainz in Gestalt des Erzbischofs, versuchte allerdings, die Juden zu schützen. Weil das misslang (der Erzbischof war leider ein Zauderer), wurde der Erzbischof später vom Kaiser bestraft.Robert Ketelhohn hat geschrieben:„Klassische“ Judenpogrome kamen praktisch immer „von unten“, die Obrigkeit
versuchte zu schützen und gegenzusteuern.
Emichos marodierender Haufe hat doch aber nichts mit „Obrigkeit“ zu tun. DasMaurus hat geschrieben:Ich würde vielleicht differenzieren: Die hohe Obrigkeit wollte schützen und ge-Robert Ketelhohn hat geschrieben:„Klassische“ Judenpogrome kamen praktisch immer „von unten“, die Obrigkeit
versuchte zu schützen und gegenzusteuern.
gensteuern. Die Anführer aber waren doch zumindest gelegentlich aus dem Adel.
Ich spiele auf den Grafen Emicho von Leiningen an, dessen Heerhaufen für die
Judenpogrome Ende des 11. Jh. verantwortlich war. Die höhere Obrigkeit, bei-
spielsweise in Mainz in Gestalt des Erzbischofs, versuchte allerdings, die Juden
zu schützen. Weil das misslang (der Erzbischof war leider ein Zauderer), wurde
der Erzbischof später vom Kaiser bestraft.
Dafür hätte ich gern mal auch nur ein einziges Beispiel.taddeo hat geschrieben:Ich bin kein Fachmann für dieses Thema und habe auch keinen vollständigen
Überblick. Aber was ich bisher gelesen habe, gingen solche "spontanen" Pogro-
me immer irgendwie von der Obrigkeit aus, die den "Pöbel" dafür instrumen-
talisierte. Meistens wollte man mal wieder die Schulden loswerden und hat da-
zu einen der beliebten Vorwände ge- bzw. erfunden. Danach war wieder ein
paar Jahrzehnte Ruhe, bis dann die nächste Aktion nötig war.
In Regensburg gingen praktisch alle Schikanen gegenüber den Juden bis hin zur Vertreibung 1519 immer von der Obrigkeit aus: vom Rat der Stadt oder von Gerichtsinstanzen. Die katholische Bevölkerung hingegen war es, die etwa im 14. Jh. die Regensburger Juden schützte, als rundum in Bayern Progrome wüteten, so auch in Deggendorf.Robert Ketelhohn hat geschrieben:Dafür hätte ich gern mal auch nur ein einziges Beispiel.taddeo hat geschrieben:Ich bin kein Fachmann für dieses Thema und habe auch keinen vollständigen
Überblick. Aber was ich bisher gelesen habe, gingen solche "spontanen" Pogro-
me immer irgendwie von der Obrigkeit aus, die den "Pöbel" dafür instrumen-
talisierte. Meistens wollte man mal wieder die Schulden loswerden und hat da-
zu einen der beliebten Vorwände ge- bzw. erfunden. Danach war wieder ein
paar Jahrzehnte Ruhe, bis dann die nächste Aktion nötig war.
Ich kann mich auf keinen Fall besinnen. Es lief praktisch immer andersherum.